then?

I like the DiS communities.

He's the former editor of XXL Magazine. Responsible for overthrowing the most popular music magazine in the world's vice like grip over hip-hop. It was really a crucial time for music journalism.

Websites are jealous of us and while it may not seem evident immediately, they harbour great resentment towards us as a printed publication, DiS was no exception. It was probably the worst to be honest. It was no sweat off anybody over here's ball sacks but a basic understanding of online journalism (with no disrespect, it's why I do it and why I love it) tells you that the fish who doesn't keep his mouth shut gets caught. We don't have BSkyB backing us, we need to get in where we fit in.

a bit after you said that - sounds like a pretty cool fella.
Alot of music magazines and websites suck corporate cock - and so what? As long as the corporation isn't torturing kids in the third world and the advertising doesn't compromise the identity of the publication, it doesn't have to be such a big deal.

No, it's not evident tome. I don't see what they have to be jealous about in any case - they get far more readers, have a massive and supportive community, have full backing from Murdoch (whether this is good or bad depends entirely on your point of view) but worked independently up until then...do you think it's because of the 'prestige' attached to print publications? I must admit I do see a lot of Artrocker hatred from their community (and incidentally Mike Diver, who called us out on Tom's spiteful editorial) - "a magazine written for and by 14 year olds" (an ex writer), often get attacked for bad sub-editing, often for poor quality writing - so no one can really play the innocent here. Hell, I've criticised Artrocker on these very boards but this was out of love rather than hate.
I just wish people would see the merits in both and either support them and help us iron out the flaws in both OR start their own and thrash us both.

on the DiS forums are a bit childish, agreed! Why get so negative about something that's basically a huge labour of love? There's something on these people's minds, and I don't think it's music journalism - it sounds like they're just pissed off with life!

It's nothing new. DiS have always been jealous of the fact that Artrocker is an active community. We have club nights, one off concerts and festival events, we have a magazine, a website and a very popular mailout. We impact taste in a way that they could only dream. Our completely natural growth over the last 6 years irks a lot of people. Our online community perhaps isn't what theirs is but what we have makes history, it's more than cache.

We take risks on our brand and our community, we put bands we like and want to support on our covers, on at our events, on our tours these are statements that no online brand can match.

I'd agree except Dis Have been around 6 years, have become the most popular site in Europe, are regularly branded on all kinds of festivals (including amazing ones like Primavera in Barcelona aswell as getting decent coverage of ATP), most definitely have an impact on taste, their own free club nights (with lineups that match or surpass Artrocker); they are pushing as hard as we are without the kudos of print. I seriously think we each have something to give and we pratically support the same bands (Johnny Foreigner, Dananananaykroyd and the like), with them having a far broader spectrum of artists. Their occasional criticisms are valid (our writing is overall not great - but then what magazine apart from The Wire and Plan B does have great writing?) as much as ours of them are. I don't think it needs to be spiteful. I believe that DiS supports the artists they want to, but with news items that admittedly mention aritsts they hate. But they do it with humour.I really see no use in the hatred...but yet understand the competition too.

To be honest it's hard for you to see things from the perspective of Artrocker being a mailout, a record label and a club night through to where it is now. With the support that we've given the scene and the bands over the years there could have been a little comeback but there wasn't, there have always been people at websites and magazines who have blocked us, we've had to source our own support from 6Music, Xfm etc. it gets to the point where all that running around town talking shit starts to wear you down. We have communication with just about every website, magazine, radio station, major journalist on some level but there are a couple that obviously don't know that, there are some that make it their prerogative to be negative.
Was what was written in Artrocker spiteful? I don't think so. That's the energy that this magazine was built on, if anybody is mad at that then they can go back in time and get mad at all the shit that caused the controversy that made the brand to begin with. Artrocker was there at 9/11 when people in the rock and roll world were declaring their satisfaction at the mass murder and Artrocker were seen as outcasts because they they didn't take the militant liberal stance on the issue. When the whole internet ran with Tom's editorial about how bad he felt when he saw a smack head in Kings Cross and that he didn't think that kid would get the help he needed because he didn't tick a box, in 2003/2004 when he said that the militant liberal indie rock world called him a racist point blank, in 2008 people are just now starting to figure that shit out. You may still call it racist but you may still live in a fantasy world. It's entirely possible. If you go back to what Artrocker was, what rock and roll should be, then you'll understand why DiS needed to be put on blast, because that back biting, sneak hating shit is weak. Rock and Roll is supposed to be fuck you in your face not fuck you behind your back.
If I have a problem with Artrocker Magazine as it is, it's that there are too many members of the "Get along gang" involved, too many scenesters, but as long as it maintains that spine of credible journalism and actual social responsibility it's ahead of the game. In this age when pop music is as soulless and meaningless as it is, it's important that somebody out here shows a little bit of heart.
At the end of the day, if it's fuck us, it's fuck you and that's how it should be, rather than keep that shit on the low so we can keep trying to extend the olive branch when we think you're ready to grow-up there comes a time when that shit needs to be out in the open.

Isn't rock and roll about rejecting convention or any notions of rules? I don't necessarily think it needs to be "fuck you" at all - I think it needs to be, "this is the way we do things, and we don't care if that's right or wrong in your world" but "fuck you" in its bluntness, just says 'ignorance'. I don'tthink rock and roll has EVER been about ignorance, but rather intolerance of it. Sometimes it gets mis appropriated of course....anyway thats by the by, but an interesting discussion for another time.
I've only been with Artrocker from the 2nd issue in 2004, which is very late in its formation, but I have at least an inkling of its foundation. I totally respect Tom and Paul and their efforts to bring Artrocker into the mainstream, to fight and attack where it needs to be done. I can definitely see where certain organisations would do everything in their power to both block and assimilate - it's in their nature, and I know how frustrating that can be. Every publication, site and organisation is a heavily weighted clique. THAT pisses me off more than anything. Funnily enough, we've been accused of that a lot too. It hurts, but I put that down to ignorance too. When I say we should "get along", it's me wanting to break down the negative reactions on both sides. Why does it have to be negative? Aren't we striving for similar goals? Perhaps not. In the end I am but one contributor in a sea of them; sure, one from the first time I saw Kaito on the front of a black and white magazine, but still just one. Artrocker inspired me and gave me the opportunity to write and express opinion. As far as I'm concerned that opinion was strong enough to remain part of Artrocker's long-term writing team. Even when I spoke out against stuff which I wrongly guessed might be breaking Artrocker down from the inside (and I deserved the reaction I got I think) it was out of, hopefully, a similar heart that drove Artrocker to it's currrent position in the first place; which is why I still write for and engage with the magazine and it's staff.
I think maybe the editorial, on reflection, was less spiteful and more innaccurate. It would've been more accurate for Tom to talk about rare Fugazi EPs or Neutral Milk Hotel B-sides rather than Oasis B-sides...which to me kind of puts a different slant on the attack. I suppose I saw it more as attacking general music fans; I look over the DiS community forums for amusment and to discover new music. These people are in bands that Artrocker cover. At the same time there is a lot of hate for Artrocker which we've already covered.
But I can see your points, and I'm glad to hear that people are pretty unrepentent in their approach when it comes to music, social issues etc. I don't think Artrocker always reflects this (hence my previous criticsms) but I've always found the heart and heads of the brand do.

defending artrocker and his own stance on things against any perceived attack. But his recent editorial attempted to do that in such a shit way.

I reread it after reading Brad's comments as I thought perhaps my initial reaction to it (as I expressed on that DiS thread) was wrong. But it wasn't. Tom's editorial is embarrassing. I read it as a knee jerk pot shot against music websites in general that's stereotypical, innacurate and unhelpful to those of us who spend a lot of time putting those dots on the screen.

What's worse, it's a dig at forum contributors (stereotyping them as 'lonely losers who don't get out much' and 'boring geeks') , who I know include many of the same people who write for artrocker and a lot of people who read it. It reminded me of that fuckwitted NME editor's recent comments on social media - was pretty much the same point of view expressed.

If it had been an all out , well executed dig at DiS then that would have at least been interesting.

Instead, it comes across as a technophobe's rant against something he can't quite get his head around. It's the kind of editorial the Idler would put out.

And the bit about music websites being jealous of print media? Total fucking bullshit. I doubt they even give it a second thought.

Don't get me wrong - I am a fan of Tom's editorials in general. As Tego points out, they have heart and don't pull any punches. But come on, the editorial in question was just total bollocks wasn't it?

As I said just above, there's no doubt that it was unfairly dismissing people like ourselves (writers, bands etc all congregate on DiS). It's wrong.
Yeah I didn't get that bit about being jealous of print media. I think I said above too, why the hell would that be? Print media hasn't got too much to be happy about right now.
I think I was toning down my comments to show that I do and always have supported Artrocker and it's way. However the editorial is still ridiculous and unnecessarily negative.
Anyway...is this the longest discussion we've had on here?

Hell, I'll post again to make it even longer. My take is that when you're writing about music, the same amount of thought and skill goes into your writing whether it's destined for paper or pixel. Words count, screw the format. Do you dig Bill Hicks for his sharp suits?
There are arguments for paper: your brain won't hurt if you stare at it for too long. There are arguments for the net: it's as addictive as cigarettes, and you have no choice but to look at it at least every hour. YOU WILL OBEY THE NET! YOU WILL OBEY THE NET!
I dig em both.

To take it back to Elliot Wilson (former editor-in-chief of XXL Magazine) for a second; what Elliot Wilson did was write an editorial in his magazine about the blogs that, at the time were attacking his brand and his format. Which caused an immeasurable stir in the blog and forum world, while at the same time recruiting Byron Crawford and Eskay (two of, if not THE TWO biggest blog stars in music at that time and to this day) to launch his now highly successful XXLMAG.com. Tom knows how much of the Artrocker community lives on the internet (as you know Dave, it's always been a big issue to all of us) and because of that he knows a) what he's entitled to in terms of respect and support b) when he's being ignored and disrespected and c) what he can do force the reaction he wants. In 2008 isn't calling a person on a forum a "Troll" the equivalent of calling somebody with a parker a trainspotter? He set the trap, people fell, it's the power of viral marketing, imagine how much power we could garner at Artrocker.com with a regular Tom Artrocker rants blog.
Don't get me wrong, it wasn't a publicity stunt, to the people who know on both sides, what he said needed saying, but we'd definitely been talking about our lack of online controversy in the weeks building up to the piece.

He just usually does it better than that editorial :)

A regular blog from him would be awesome of course. Just what this site needs.

As would regular updates of your own one - it's had a lot of hits in the past....

The internet smells that kind of rantspam faux-controversy a mile off and as a PR strategy it's about 2 decades out of date. As for the 'power of viral marketing', the only people that picked it up were ourselves and dis who charitably linked to us in their coverage - any traffic increases were below measurable limits (not sure what that says about dis mind).

Why don't you write a blog? I'm sure it would be far more interesting than this dull insider meta-shit we all seem to keep getting drawn into.

I'm bored now. Everyone's been brought back down to Earth. It was fun while it lasted.
What the hell is 'dull insider meta-shit'? Sounds rad.
I like Rick's ignored assertion that the media doesn't fucking matter as long as the power and meaning of the words are there. I couldn't give a shit if it's in my hands or waiting on my screen when at home/on my phone. All this bickering and bollocks, while proving points and generally making things exciting for people who care, is secondary to what we're trying to achieve....which is what? On my own personal terms its to strive for exciting reading, well-intentioned, honest and passionate writing about music (or any subject I decide on). Whether it's surreal, violent, satirical or plain old criticism, doesn't matter. It's a challenge that's for sure. I have a personal venedetta against utterly SHIT music journalism. I want it to be exterminated and stamped out along with the hangers on and scenesters that control it. It's a futile mission, but I'd like to think there are others who at least agree.
In the end though, print is fucking dead and online will continue on. I'm not saying print won't exist. It just won't exist as it does now. Shame, we'll miss it. Fanzines will always exist of course, coz everyone loves em. :)

meta-shit = a pointless conversation about itself (not a jab at tego's writing in case you read it that way)

I like DiS lots because, like Artrocker, they have passion for music they like, and it's usually new, refreshing and exciting, again, like Artrocker.
I'd take them over Pitchfork any day. If people want to hate on either publication, that's fine. They just have to remember that both of our hearts are in the right place and that both are achieving things a little beyond what most though them capable. I like that.
I'd love to have a DiS vs. Artrocker festival (like the Pitchfork vs. ATP fest in May). That would be excellent.

Or is it hear hear? I never worked that one out... anyway! I prefer DiS to pitchfork too.
One thing is, DiS gave us this whole posting after reviews thing (I'm pretty sure we got it from them, didn't we?) and Mike Diver's right when he says it's a bloody curse sometimes. Someone just slagged one of my reviews! I'm wounded... hurt... and I blame DiS!

but strangely compelling discussion!

Alot of them are like a baying mob with pitch forks and flaming torches, rallying for the death of Frankenstein... or something!

How was the Burma spoon gig Lee?

..it does seem a bit extreme...especially the people that say "ive never read it (artrocker), but it sounds twatty".

But theres some interesting points going on.

Yeh, the Burma gig went well. The bands were great but we had to contend with a leaky roof....not good with a room full of electrics. Raise £110 though, so thats better than a kick in the ghoulies i say.

Glad no-one got frazzled into a watery grave. I know I keep saying this but I'm gonna try and get down to a spoon night very soon!

As for the debate... I quite like DiS and Artrocker so I'm just keeping my ma'af shut! There are, like you say, good points as well as some offensive ones.

You guys are just jealous because nobody said they wanted you back in the magazine ;). Word to Delia!

This is a great look for us. Who are we to question the methods of the great Elliot Wilson?

*who is he again?*